Leading on Borrowed Time: Fleur Marks on Burnout, Brilliance & the ‘Waiting Room of Death’

Hello, and welcome

back to another episode

of Unleashing Brilliance.

Today's guest is nothing

short of extraordinary.

Flo Marx is a former

corporate powerhouse, and

she's now living in what

she calls the waiting

room of death, a terminal

diagnosis, no cure, and no

roadmap for what comes next.

But flu isn't retreating.

She's showing up with radical

acceptance, fierce clarity,

and a mission that couldn't

be more urgent to make

sure that other executives

and business owners don't

wait for a diagnosis to

start living differently.

This isn't just about burnout

or balance, it's about legacy.

It's about choosing impact.

Over ego presence, over

performance, and leading a

life that actually matters.

So take a deep breath

'cause this conversation

I know will move you.

It will challenge the way you

work and the way you live,

and it might just save you

from making the same mistakes.

Let's dive in.

Hello.

Welcome to Unleashing

Brilliance.

How are you today?

Wonderful.

Thank you.

Great to see you, Janine.

Oh, you too.

It is so exciting to have

this conversation here

and to give listeners a

chance to get to know you.

I've had the joy of working

with you for oh gosh, a

fair while now, and every

single moment that we have

to interact where I get

to learn more about you,

helping you unpack your

ip, helping you do this.

Incredible, which will

get to exciting next

season of your life.

I'm inspired, by both the

woman that you are, but also

the passion that you have

for the work that you do.

So I'm really excited to

share you with more people.

So thank you for

trusting the process.

Flo, it's, it is wonderful

to have you here.

now, as I said in my

intro, let's, let's just

jump straight into it.

You know, I shared in my intro

your incredible background.

you know, on paper

you had it all.

like so many of my listeners,

uh, you've had a high

powered corporate background.

you had team and clients.

You are a mom, like you

were really working at that

high level, top level in

the industries that you were

in, and I know some of the

stories that you've told

me about the hours that you

put in the projects you did.

Many of us can relate, so I

guess the curious question

for our listeners is what

made you walk away from that?

I, as you say, Janine,

I, I was, running, or I guess

in the marathon of life, you

know, ticking all the boxes.

Fabulous wardrobe, we forgot

to mention as well, you

know, killing it, at, work.

doing the juggle, yet

something inside of me.

Was feeling pretty

empty actually.

I felt exhausted.

Definitely.

'cause I think the

relentlessness of being in a

high powered job, traveling

country to country, you

know, doing the mom job

as well as just trying to.

You know, live life, the

emptiness that was within

me wouldn't go away.

And I kept making a deal

with myself just to keep

going, keep pushing through,

it'll get better, or I'll

feel I'll take that rest

or I'll manage to enjoy

things when I get this done.

Whatever it was at the time.

and what happened, Janine,

it wasn't really my choice.

My body was shouting,

and I was ignoring

all the signs because.

I had too much to do and then

my body, took the charge of

me and I couldn't keep going.

I got really sick, so it just

put me on my bum basically

Yeah.

And forced me to stop.

and that's probably

when I stepped back and

went, hang on a minute.

Perhaps this isn't quite

the life I had imagined.

And I think

so many can relate.

I know a lot of my clients

that I work with have

been in that, position

of, striving for that

particular I. Position in

an organization or striving

for that particular goal or

striving for that lifestyle

win or that financial win.

And then, you know, throwing

family and having babies

or aged parents and we're

juggling so many bulls.

this real almost unrelentless

question of is this it?

Is this how I'm supposed

to live my life?

But as you said,

your body decided.

To take over.

And again, I know there's

many people listening in

where similar things have

happened, but your body didn't

just choose to take over.

You talk about actually

living every single day in

the waiting room of death.

Can you just add some

context around that

So I worked myself

super sick um, the never

get better kind and had

to stop work for two years

to navigate treatment.

And unfortunately

there's no known and

cure for the autoimmune

disease that I have.

and uh, also on top of

that, I got cancer as well.

So it was a double whammy

What happened was my

disease spread to my brain.

It was at that point the

doctors said, look, you're

never gonna get better.

This is it.

Get prepared.

It's, you know, time to ready,

you know, ready yourself for

things getting a lot worse.

and I've been given the

gift, I guess, of sitting

in this waiting room of

death, I call it, uh, where

normally people get sick

and get better or they get

sick and unfortunately die.

And in my case, I'm

still sitting in this.

I'm very grateful to be

sitting in this waiting room,

where I had the opportunity

to kind of really process and

understand how I'd ended up

here, but also how I could

redefine my life while I

was in this waiting room.

I had to redefine what

success looked like for me?

My definition of success, you

know, ticking all the high

performer boxes was flawed.

Because ultimately I wasn't

happy or didn't feel that

sense of contentment.

So when I got the

news, this is it.

I spent some time really

trying to understand what

does success really mean

for me, knowing that my time

here might be limited and I.

That really helps sharpen

what matters to me.

And then re, I guess I've

had the opportunity to

really think about what's my

purpose, my legacy, my meaning

making while I am here and

feeling this time pressure

of, I don't know how long

I have, has been a gift in

so many ways, and that it's

allowed me to really sharpen.

what that does actually look

like for me and actually

put it into practice In

real life, I've actually had

the opportunity to figure

it out and then apply it.

And then actually I have

managed in the last 14

years to create the life.

It's taken me a

while to create the

life I truly wanted.

But at first I had no

idea where to start.

So how long has

this wait Have you been

in this waiting room now?

It's about, well,

probably, I'd say I got

diagnosed 14 years ago

and it was probably about

six years into my journey

after a lot of treatment.

So yeah.

So what's that?

Eight years?

Yeah.

Seven, eight years.

And you talked there

about you talk about It being

gift, this gift of being able

to process this gift of being

able to choose how you live.

Lead your life.

what sort of things did you

discover during that process?

What, what sort of things

did you learn, uh, both about

yourself and reflecting on,

on that career that give

you the fire now to share?

What sort of things

did you learn?

Uh, well first I

real, I, I was in denial

the first couple of years.

Like I kept being the eternal

optimist thinking it would

turn and I'd get better.

And when I found out

this was my prognosis,

I had to really sit with

and practice something

called radical acceptance.

And really understand that

and let go of the mom.

I wanted to be, the career.

I wanted to have the Big

status titles, the stuff

that I had to really accept

that I was in this body

and that my life as it

is now it is what it is.

And, and so for me it was a

real journey of, acceptance.

But also self-compassion

and self-love.

That which probably is,

you know, has, has paid

off more than any green

juice will ever, because

lots of people said just,

take care of your body.

But actually I needed to do

the inner work the work on

me and understand, how to be

kind to myself, how to put

myself first to take care

of me in a way that was.

Sustainable, but also in a

way that came from a place

of compassion and love.

And I think before I was

probably quite hard on myself.

I had very high standards,

unrelenting standards, and

I think it was this real

permission piece to own who I

am as I am and to do me, and,

but also to embrace my reality

and show up at any day that I

could get up out of bed and,

and be of service to others

and help others not end up

like me, but also as a mom.

Just being fully present to.

Each day rather than this

sort of forward state

of thinking about when

I, or just, or whatever.

It was just really about

being in the moment.

So that was a huge

lesson for me.

and for our listeners,

it is The thing about you is

you still haven't stopped.

So whilst this evolution has

happened for you in terms of

this radical acceptance, the

work that you're now doing

the things that you stand

on stage and speak about

the work that you're engaged

to do in corporates, you

still live and breathe this

self-compassion and self-love.

And again, you know, you've

done this without stopping.

You built a wellbeing,

you built an online.

Store called the

Wellbeing Store.

You had, bricks and

mortar businesses.

You were out there running

training programs, coaching,

standing on stages, despite

this, place that you are

living in, in terms of this

waiting room and death.

And, and equally doing all of

that whilst maintaining this

self-love and self-compassion.

So before we, we move into

what you are noticing and

how your, uh, your message

is so important for.

For those that are running

their own businesses or

those that are in leadership

what does self-compassion,

self-love look like for you?

Because like you said,

everyone goes, look

after your body, green

juices, you know, dah.

But it's so much

more than that.

I think, first of all,

I have to own my ambition.

I'm not someone

who will sit still.

Uh, I love being amongst it.

I love people.

I love helping others,

and so I channeled into

what's my purpose and

while I'm here, what does

that look like for me?

And I don't think I'm

ever gonna slow down

really, like completely.

So I've had to work out

self-compassion practices that

I can bookend in my day, each

day, every day as a practice.

So, for me, self-compassion

is taking a 10 minute

break during the day.

For me, self-compassion

is taking care of

my body at the gym.

Self-compassion for me is

sitting and having, I sit for

a silent tea ceremony a couple

of times a week, full Japanese

tea ceremony just to slow down

and gain my perspective back.

Self-compassion for me is

doing things, hanging out with

people that I love and having

fun and enjoying the ride

because if this is it, I need

to make sure I enjoy it too.

So I kind of balance my, I

guess, natural work ethic.

With enjoyment and lightness

and fun and wearing sequins

because I can, and not

caring about so much the

small stuff or what other

people think of me, and just

really self-compassion is

owning my sort of crazy, wild

self, but also my ambition

that that pushes me every

day to get up and make a

difference and do something

with the time I've got.

Yeah.

I love that.

And I love this concept

of owning your ambition.

What would you say to our

listeners around that concept?

'cause I know you talk

a lot about this, and

particularly to women

about own your ambition.

I. What does that

actually mean to you?

What's your message

for people around that?

So for me it was

figuring out how do I still

be ambitious but not do it

at the cost of me, because

I'd always self sacrificed.

I'd always given all of

myself out to everyone, every

role, whatever, and me last.

And so I had to learn,

how do I balance my

ambition with actually not.

Taking me out literally.

And so I actually have figured

out how to do it in a way

that, one, I'm doing what I

enjoy, uh, and what I love.

So that definitely

fills my cup.

But secondly, I make sure

that there's space and

capacity for me to fill

my cup and to, really tune

into my gut if something

isn't feeling right, and I'm

striving and it feels like

I'm efforting too hard, and

it's just feeling difficult.

I'm really checking in

constantly with what my gut's

telling me, my gut brain,

and going, okay, maybe this,

I need to let go of this.

This is working for me.

Maybe this ambition or

this belief that I've got

right now isn't serving

me and it's costing me.

So I'm constantly checking in

with the, my inner narrative.

My gut.

And then also making sure

there's space and capacity.

I work less hours and, and

deliver more impact because

I'm really focused on what

matters and doing things

that I know, are meaning

making, but also that, bring

me contentment and joy.

I love it.

and in terms of, so you do a

lot of work now directly in

organizations, uh, working

with leaders to essentially

help shift that paradigm and

essentially the wellbeing of

that leadership workforce.

And you speak a lot about

this, and I know you're

in the process of, writing

a book and sharing this.

Concept around the

overachievers dilemma

through your story.

whatcha noticing?

if you look at where you are

at in the waiting room of

death, this, gift as you call

it, of being able to live life

to own your ambition, to self

love and have self-compassion.

Being in that place

and watching and seeing

what you notice in

the work that you do.

this passion to share

your, learnings, this gift

that you've been given.

What, what is driving it?

What are you noticing?

This making you go on

a rant and a mission.

Uh, well, I'm

noticing in room that

leaders are showing up

completely exhausted without

perspective or clarity that

there's a belief system.

Out there, whether it's

within the individual leader

or within the organization,

that, uh, high performance

equals pushing and doing more,

that somehow we're gonna

get through this to-do list.

And all the things that are

on, on that, that leadership

is self-sacrifice that, Mostly

high performing leaders are

actually running on empty.

So when I'm in room, probably

the biggest gift I can give

them is space and capacity

to just slow it down,

catch their breath, take

perspective but also get to

do some of the inner work.

I don't think a lot of

leaders have had the

space to even think about

how am I showing up?

they're just running.

Literally on empty

from thing to thing.

Uh, meeting to meeting,

deadline to deadline,

delivery to delivery.

And so therefore they're not

really catching themselves

and taking a moment to

see how that's showing up

for themselves as leaders,

but also for others.

so I think, really

getting them to understand

the inner narrative.

What's the story they're

telling themselves?

Why are they pushing

themselves to the point

of losing themselves

in the process?

And then really understanding

what their leadership

ambition looks like and

how they're going to put

in the right practices or

disciplines to keep themselves

find a better way that's

a bit more sustainable so

they don't opt out or they

don't burn out, or they

don't end up sick like me.

So it's sort of really helping

them catch it and reset.

are you finding,

from what you're noticing,

is it a generational thing

or is it just everywhere?

I think there's

a bit of generational

difference, definitely.

I think you know, I was

in room with the younger

generation who, there was one

person who said, look, I'm

not working five minutes past

five o'clock 'cause that's

what I get paid to and I'll

do it two times a week, but

no more than 10 minutes.

And they're not prepared

to sacrifice in the

way that perhaps.

the, you know, the other

generations have known, you

know, work hard, play hard

kind of mentality, certainly

in the industries I work in.

So I think that, I also think

there's this overwhelm with

the younger generation around

what to focus on how to do it.

They're looking up to the

older generations, their

bosses, their leaders.

And they don't

wanna be like them.

So I think they're looking

for a better way too.

They just don't

know how to do that.

They feel the sense of

pressure and overwhelm and

just getting lost in it.

and still figuring out

who they are within that

and what they wanna do.

So I'm curious

again, just to delve into

what you're noticing.

there's multiple generations

at work all navigating.

There's some really

challenging adaptive

world that we are in

right now, and I'm seeing

it myself with three.

bigger children, entering

the workforce and trying

to balance all things.

And then equally, you know,

being at the age that I am,

I can absolutely relate to

this work hard, play hard

mentality that almost is

an unconscious rule book

that's really hard to break.

I'm curious when you're

in room, particularly with

you know, high achieving.

Leaders who have been

programmed unconsciously

to work in that way.

How do you get them

to identify, you talk

about this inner work.

how do get people To stop and

to actually reconnect with

their purpose and what's,

important and what is the

response to that process.

I dunno if you've got

any examples of the shift

that it has made for

some of your clients.

I think the inner work

that I get 'em to do is to

understand what shaped them to

be the leader they are today.

And that can be from,

you know, we learn

leadership through others.

Whether it's.

From our parenting or, you

know, our key influences

in our life or the

bosses that we've had.

so I get 'em to understand

what's, what's shaped them.

Then I get 'em to understand

what beliefs, limiting or

otherwise, uh, driving them

to push to exhaustion or to

push them to a point where

they're perhaps feeling

not so contented and then

I get 'em to reshape that.

So, to think about, well.

if I was here to make

impact, what does

impact look like for me?

and always give them

permission not to try

and do it all, but to

actually think, okay, if

I did three things this

year and made real impact,

what is that going to be?

So really sharpen their

focus and then I get them

to chunk it down and think

about, well, how can I do

that quarter by quarter?

Or, by, you know.

Role to help them get there.

And I had, I had a, a

senior leader last year

who had lost his mojo.

He had, he was in line to

become the next CEO but

was questioning whether

he wanted to even be that.

He didn't want to end up being

like the CEOs he'd seen before

him, but he also lost his.

Sense of self, in the

leadership journey.

He was a high, he's

a high performer.

so I got him back to thinking

about what mattered to him,

what was his core value

system, and got him to

really think about how could

he redefine the role of a

CEO that just because the

leaders before him had been,

you know, not necessarily

aspirational to him, that what

would that look like for him?

He'd do it differently

because people and

culture mattered to him.

And then I got him to really

think about, the legacy

he wanted to leave behind.

If he took on a a senior role,

but also not the legacy just

for his work, but for his

children and for his people.

He loved around him that

what, what was the impact he

wanted to make in his life?

And that helped him recenter

back to what mattered.

And actually he's

just flying now.

Like he's just taken this

whole ambition, but he

is doing it without it

being at the cost of him.

He's doing it from a sense of.

Self and a sense of clarity.

And I think that's allowed

him to then be really clear

on what, what he wanted to

ask for in his next role and

what he wanted to define as

how he was gonna make it his.

So I dunno if that answers

your question fully, but

it's, it's, I mean, often

it's just space giving as you

know, Janine, like, it's just

sometimes, but also giving

them practical tools that

they can use immediately.

if it's too hard, because it's

very hard to change behavior.

That's, you know, it's very

hard and we're all tired.

So how do you give people,

you know, really simple tools

that they can just start

to practice immediately?

just to give them that

little window of clarity or

perspective or meaning making.

Hmm.

talked there about

that particular client

and curiosity around

legacy impact leaving.

Why is this work so

important to you?

Well, I dunno

how long I have here

and it's not going away.

My, my reality.

So, for me, I think.

I want my very long road

and the hard lessons I've

learned to be someone

else's short road, right?

I wanna help people

not end up like me as

a real driving force.

And for my children too

who've watched me, you

know, burn myself out

time and time again.

So I really want, I wanted to

master it for me first, and

I had to do that first was

I had to walk my own talk.

And then now it's more about.

Just making sure that.

With any leader that I am

lucky enough to come across to

help support them, to figure

out a better way, and for

them where it's sustainable,

they don't lose themselves

in the process and it's, and

that they can actually just

own who they are and show up

more authentically, not wear a

mask, not try and be something

they're not, not meet this

unrelenting standard that's

never gonna be realized.

And just really enjoy.

I mean, for me, you know,

conscious joy has been a real

part of, what I bring into

a room now, which is, this

real sense of self and joy

and, contentment that means

I can show up authentically

as me and but also enjoy it.

I only do what I love now.

I actually say no to lots

of things, but I just wanna

make sure that every moment.

I am in room as meaning

making, but also that I enjoy

the ride as well, so I get

a lot from the leaders too.

Yeah.

and you have to consciously

say yes and no because as

we've talked about in our

conversations, you know,

you can be in room and

deliver an awesome 2, 3, 4

days of, content for other

people, and your passion

is driving you, but your

recovery because of your.

Health takes that

little bit longer.

So it's this intentionality

around, uh, working with

clients that are committed

to a different way of

leading, knowing that that

different way will absolutely,

positively impact their

teams, impact their results,

impact their performance.

So I love your

intentionality around that.

if we were writing.

And I know you're

writing a book.

We'll have to get you back on

when that book gets published.

You know, your story is,

and there's so much more to.

it.

You're very humble when

you share your story.

I really encourage our

listeners to see if they can

hear your story you know, I

got you to speak at my event.

And it touches people.

And your courage, your

bravery, your passion but

this legacy piece that you

want to leave you know,

you, you've said it a few

times today, I don't want

people, I want a short What

has been a long journey

for me, for other people.

so if you were writing the

new Rules for leadership,

if you had the chance to.

Share your message

with the world.

what has to change?

What?

What are the fundamental

things that, that we as

individuals, as either leaders

now or emerging leaders,

as people running our own

businesses, what do we have to

do differently in your mind?

Well, probably one that

I am constantly working on

for myself as well is you're

enough already as you are that

owning, who you are and how

you are as you are right now,

and how you show up as you.

On good days, bad days,

you when you're feeling

tired, whatever, exhausted

that that's okay.

That you're enough

exactly as you are.

That the ING piece that

comes in when you don't feel

enough that that's where

some of the costs come.

And if you can own that,

that will really, filter

through to your team

and to those around you.

The second one

is vulnerability.

I used to always try and be

perfect, and I think there's

real connection in not having

all the answers As a leader.

Being vulnerable, you

know, I got this wrong.

You know, when you do make

those mistakes or when you

do not quite get it right to

really be open and vulnerable

with your team that, hey, this

is a struggle moment for me.

I didn't quite get this

right, but I'm working on it.

Or This is what I'm working on

to be an even better leader.

Or, this is where I'm at right

now and I need your help.

So I think, you know,

being vulnerable and I

think the third thing is

being really clear on what

matters and focusing on

that with single-mindedness.

Because trying to do it

all and tick off that to-do

list completely each day

or the e get through all

your emails, whatever that

thing is that you are trying

to complete, that actually

just to do less well.

You know, three things.

A day.

If you can do three amazing

things a day, that's enough.

So I think really focusing

in on what matters and

not letting the urgent

or the noise or the busy.

Take control.

And really being single-minded

about, okay, if I did

one thing or how can I

be most effective today?

What's that one

thing I can do?

And do that first, rather

than all the other stuff

that's demanding attention,

because then you'll get.

Sense of progression and a

sense of fulfillment, but also

you'll also then move things

forward rather than having to

do your real work at night or

feel like you're never quite

achieving what you want to.

those are, I guess,

my three things.

I think there was three.

I think

there was three.

I love that efforting

is where the cost is.

Fleur, I have to ask as we

sort of get to the end of

this conversation you know,

if people are watching you

now on YouTube, there's so

much joy that emanates from

you and I don't think I've

ever, in the time that I've

worked with you, seeing you

not smiling, this conscious

joy is such a part of you.

I can't even begin to imagine

what it must feel like to

live in this waiting room

of death where you know,

you've got beautiful children

doing remarkable things.

You recently renewed

your vows with your

beautiful husband 25?

years.

You, I just got goosebumps.

You renewed your vows.

how do you.

stay there with so

much grace and so

you.

Joy?

I think.

I'm kind to myself, I think's

probably the simplest answer.

And I wobble off all the time.

You know, I forget I have

an invisible illness, so

even I forget when I rock

up to hospital, you know,

I go, oh, that's right.

I. I've learned to navigate

pain and really navigate

my mind and get my mind

and body to work as one.

And I think just for me,

it's self-kindness, but also

daily practices that it's

the small shifts that made

the biggest impact to me, and

I have to keep checking in.

Have I wobbled off again

'cause I go shiny, shiny,

or, you know, something

excites me and I'm off down

another path or I don't know.

So I just have to

keep bringing myself

back constantly.

And I have people like you.

You know, I have

you as my coach.

I have my therapist, and

I have a couple of really

important people who keep me.

Grounded and on the path.

So I don't wobble

off too much now.

and I just practice what

I preach really, and

I just, I just feel so

lucky to be here You know,

but I have hard days.

I have bad days.

Of course, there's days

where I lose faith and

hope and, you know, I do.

And and you know, I go

down the, dark lane of

pity and so I just keep

bringing myself back.

To my present self and to

what I can control and what I

can't control and what matters

and then kind of just try and

laugh it off or go for a walk

or hang out with Mother Nature

and not let it hold me or

own me as much as it perhaps

used to this, this drive.

And just try and

find a way to kind of

recalibrate constantly.

Yeah,

You've got such bravery

and such courage.

And as you've said to

me a couple of times,

you, you've come.

To accept.

What is.

gonna happen at some

point.

And your point around, that's

the gift as well, because it

makes you live and breathe and

do the work that you're doing.

What is the legacy

you are leaving?

Well, I guess, you

know, I was just thinking

when you said that I'm

always smiling and I remember

Mar Young who was, who was

the global CEO of Ogilvy,

where I used to work.

He used to call me the

Happy Warrior, and that

was before I got sick.

Uh, I think my legacy

is helping people find

a better way, to lead

sustainably authentically

as their true self, and.

to also help my children

to understand what it means

to live a full life and.

To own who they are and,

and you know, there's

enough peace that they're

enough as they are, and

no matter what happens

in this world for them.

and I think, you know,

I feel like this gift

piece where I've managed

to master something that

worked for me, this kind

of blueprint around how to

lead with ambition without

it being at the cost of you.

I want it to impact, to help

as many people as possible.

And that I constantly pivoted

and, and improved and, in

myself practiced what I'm

talking about, but also

helped others get there.

Because once you unlock

this way of being

there's no going back.

Uh, so, and I guess once

you experience it, it

shifts something within you.

So, think for me it's get

is make us get get my book

or me be in front of room

or, but not at the cost

of me, but always taking

care of me on the journey.

But to help as many

people figure out their

leadership system that

allows 'em to do this well

is my legacy for sure.

And I think I've already

done it, to be honest,

but, so now it's just

all bonus stuff, right?

Yeah, and I can't

wait for this, this book,

we can't even share a

title yet because it's, uh,

currently with a number of

publishers in the hope that

someone will publish it.

So if there's any publishers

listening to this,

make sure to reach out.

Flour, I just wanna

Thank you, for being

you for the gift of you.

For the incredible support

that you give to others,

but also through how you are

living and leading and how

that is creating such a ripple

for other people to follow.

And anybody listening in here

right now who may be feeling.

Wobbly themselves, maybe

feeling like they're

at brink of burnout or

they're in burnout or

they're just not coping.

Highly recommend that you

check out flow's work whether

it's about getting some

one-on-one support or even

bringing flow into your

organizations to get your

teams and your leaders to

start thinking differently

because there is a better way.

This overachievers dilemma is

making too many people either.

Invisibly sick or outwardly

sick, and it's up to

us to, to lead the way.

Thank you, so much

flour, sending you

so much love and keep doing

the awesome work that you're

doing, because you are a

gift to all of us and so many

Thank you, Janine.

You.