Your Comfort Zone is Keeping You Stuck with Sue Rosen

[00:00:00] [00:01:00] Welcome, Sue, to this episode of Unleashing Brilliance. I'm super excited to have this conversation with you.

Sue: Fantastic. Thank you, Janine. I'm really delighted to be here.

Janine: Now, our [00:02:00] listeners are probably picking up that there is a different accent there. You have managed to hang on to your English accent. Mine's a little bit all over the place. can you just share with our listeners a little bit about, um, what's led you to the work that you're doing?

here right now.

Sue: Yeah. So I, um, it was funny cause not everyone picks up on the accent actually, in Australia. So I'm now based in Sydney, but I was brought up in the UK, uh, just North of London. And I went through all my education in the UK. UK and then I worked and qualified as a chartered accountant. That was my first, you know, real job in London after university. And then after that, I came to Australia and I came as a, on a working holiday, just really to, to travel, to have some fun, to see something of the world. I had decided as well at that point that three [00:03:00] and a half years in an accounting practice and doing my qualification, that that wasn't what I was going to do. I didn't like it. I needed to leave. I needed to do something new. So that was part of the travel, do some new things. And then I loved, and I never anticipated this. I wasn't a person who came to Australia thinking I would spend my life here, but I came for the adventure, you know, explore somewhere new, but I loved the lifestyle here.

So I traveled around doing the backpacking thing for six months and then worked in Sydney for six months. And in the six months working in Sydney, when this is a fabulous lifestyle, I can, you know, live near the beach and equally work in a cosmopolitan city. so that then started me thinking differently and went back at the end of my visa, did a year back in the UK and applied for permanent residence and came back again after there was another year, uh, and have been here ever since. even then I probably wasn't sure it would be a forever thing, but [00:04:00] just got very settled in the lifestyle, met friends, met a man who became my husband And started interestingly having said, you know, yeah, no, I'm leaving accounting. I went back into it, but not back into accounting practice, not back into professional practice.

I went, yeah, okay. I want to be involved in businesses. What I want to do, what I'd always seen my CA training as is a really good grounding. in understanding how businesses operate, you know, the financials and how they operate. So, and I'd always had a passion for the performing arts. So actually my first, role, my first career role in Sydney was actually working for a theatre producer and events So I stayed in that space for a while, running a small finance team, moved then into a more corporate role a bit down the line in terms of went to a recruitment business where I ran the finance team, we went through a public listing. So that was a massive event. It's a big event in any career, I think, but particularly when you run a finance team, going [00:05:00] through an IPO was massive and stayed with that business for 10 years.

And I always say in hindsight. Couple of years too long. And throughout all of my career, I kept thinking I'm going to do something different, but I wasn't sure what that was going to be. and it's really interesting looking back in my thirties, I thought, and of course then I was having children and I felt very locked in to the career, locked into having a mortgage, you know, working part time, looking after children and thinking, Oh, I've, I've invested all this time, energy, money, et cetera, in this career. So I can't change now. But what's interesting is that once I was in my forties, I went, Oh my God, if I have to do this same kind of work for the next 20 years, I'd rather stick pens in my eyes. It's really interesting how you, you know, you can start to unlock something by seeing choice. You know, you actually do have a choice. [00:06:00] And so that was something of a turning point. And actually, I always describe the turning point really is that as my girls were starting to grow up, we tell our children, and we've all been told this, you can do anything you want to do. And we were brought up in a life of relative privilege and they are. so why wasn't I doing that? You know, that was the realization for me that you tell your kids you can do anything, but what I was, became very conscious of was that I was not role modeling that I was in a role that I did not enjoy that I, would come home just feeling frustrated that I wasn't making the contribution that I wanted to make. You know, I was doing okay. I was showing up and I was doing the job, but I wasn't enthused and engaged and passionate about what I was doing. so I actually had some career coaching myself. And then finally I invested in myself, because that was the other thing I'd neglected for so [00:07:00] long. We get caught up, don't we, in, looking after the family, doing the job, doing all the things that are expected of us. Um, and I finally invested some time, money, energy. In myself having coaching, which was initially around, you know, finding the better CFO role for me, you know, in a better organization that was more suited to me, or what's the role that I really want. And actually for me, what came out of that was I love these conversations that I was having with my coach.

And I went, Hmm, maybe I could do that. so I started to explore that. And then when you did, um, did some training and then went, Oh yeah. I love, this is a powerful modality, and it's got so much potential to help people. So this is what I want to do. So then it became some, you know, training and training and training and a post grad whilst working a part time CFO role.

Janine: I think that's when we met [00:08:00] when you were still working

part time.

Sue: Almost. definitely because there was a, it was a period for about five years. I didn't, I kept reading things about, you know, go and take the leap of faith, jump into something new. And I really, really wanted to do that. But I'm also, I'm quite risk averse. I'm quite conservative financially. And I thought, I can't just walk away from a good income.

And of course, there's all of those things. We, you know, you know this as well. We talk to people working in corporate, there's a status that you have that comes with having a certain title. There's, you know, the income that you feel locked in because now your lifestyle is supported by this level of income. And so I went, I can't just cut all the ties and walk away. I have to find a way to prove to myself and also to my husband that this is a viable alternative. So that was what, so there was a period of five years when I worked part [00:09:00] time, sometimes two days a week, sometimes three days a week, sometimes four days a week in a CFO gig. and continued to train and then built my coaching practice. And then about three, three and a half years ago now. went out completely into coaching and leadership development work, which I absolutely love.

Janine: so there's so much in there. I was scribbling away as you were talking. Um, I mean, what you, what you've pretty much described there is this wonderful sort of, Disco ball of experience that, that so many people have, you know, the transitions that we go through, through decades or our lives and the skills that we acquire, the choices that we make, the experiences that we have, how all of that just shapes this person that you are now, and you talked a little bit in there around, you said a couple of years too long, and, choosing to invest and how we neglect [00:10:00] ourselves and the fear of change. I'm really curious before we we start sort of delving into, you know, what you do now and how, your wish, I guess, for leadership.

I'm not into a life of regret by any means, but if you could look back and give yourself, be that fairy godmother, looking back on, as you said, the five, six, seven years, what would you tell yourself if you could go back? And at what point would you have given yourself that message?

Sue: Oh my goodness. I think there are various points and to your point about not believing in kind of regrets, I absolutely do think we have regrets over our lives because I think, I almost think if we don't have some regrets that perhaps shows that we didn't. make choices that we, you know, yes, they've led me to where I am and I'm really happy with where I am now. However, sometimes I look back and I go, yeah, I could have got here a lot sooner and a lot more smoothly if I had done [00:11:00] some things differently. So I think the first big thing for if I go way back, a long time back is coming out of uni and feeling like I had to grab onto a job and I had to take the first thing that was available or offered to me. And what's really interesting. I look back at that now and I can see that I was so scared of having to say something that wasn't sufficiently in the eyes of myself or my family, sufficiently professional or sufficiently well paid or, you know, that wasn't putting you on a career development path. I was so scared of that and so scared really of not having an income coming out of uni.

I really didn't want to have to move back with mum and dad. that I probably jumped in too quickly. to that first choice. And of course, I can tell you all the reasons why Chartered [00:12:00] Accountant was a fantastic grounding for me in business. and I did learn a lot and I've got some amazing friends from that time. but that would be one thing. And interestingly, sometimes when you hear other things, I, I saw a documentary, it was about something else entirely, but it was set during that period in the UK. And interestingly, it put that decision in context for me. And it put that decision in that period of the late 80s in the UK, Margaret Thatcher in power, the energy crisis that had previously gone on, the struggles against unions, and I was at um, University of Leeds, so a very, you know, you would know the whole

Janine: Oh, it's my hometown.

Sue: Oh, exactly. So, you know, and I had never been exposed really to that. level of political awareness, unions, all of those things. so I think when sometimes you look back at these things and go, actually, given the context, it made sense that I made that choice. and it also makes sense in [00:13:00] the context of having had a mom who was very, very, felt very strongly that her daughters needed to have financial independence. because she was a woman from, you know, a prior generation brought up in Dublin, in Ireland, went to a common school, really very limited career options. So she really wanted something different for her daughters. So you put those two things together and I can understand why I made the choice. What I would tell myself though, going back now is at both at that time, and then at subsequent times in my career is be braver. Take the step into the unknown. You know, I think I always wanted to know, I got offered a couple of different opportunities to move out of finance roles and accounting over the years. And I shied away from them because I was scared of going down a path that seemed unknown. So that's where I would really say to myself, [00:14:00] and as I say, That's the first point I can really see it, but then I can see it at a number of points through my career of actually be brave enough to step into the unknown. And that means having some kind of idea on where you want to go, but not necessarily knowing all the steps of how you're going to get there. It also means being prepared to let go of something, And that's really hard because, you know, whether that is family expectations or whether it's, education, the status, it's all of those things. To be able to let go of those things is hard. Because we've become attached to them. They become part of our identity. yeah, so for me, that's, that's the key is how could I have been braver in some of my choices?

Janine: there's so much in there and I'm curious, with regards to things like, I love the idea about the decisions that we make in [00:15:00] context. And I'm, I'm imagining there's many people listening in here right now who are equally probably reflecting some of the choices that they've made up until now.

where we do make those decisions in context, whether that fuels our lack of belief or fear of taking a step. Out of something, and it's that whole conformity piece as well. I think of at that moment in time, we were talking offline about our daughters, how, you know, at that moment in time, the decisions that the next generation are making, um, equally being made in the context of gender.

Of where they're at in their lives. But you also talk about this, this being braver and taking that step into the unknown. I'm really curious about how, how has you seen this play out in the work that you do now? So you are a, an advocate and you're passionate about leadership and changing leadership and particularly women in leadership and executive presence and taking ownership of leadership.

of that. So I'm really curious as [00:16:00] to where, where do you see this connection there through what you've, you've experienced yourself to now the work that you're doing and then how you're seeing that playing out in terms of the clients that you serve.

Sue: I think there's a co, there are a couple of things there. I think one that really talks to my experience is this piece about understanding that we have a choice, that sometimes we feel stuck, we feel trapped and in a situation and we feel like we don't have choice And and when, we realize that we do have choices, that doing nothing or staying in the status quo. is a choice, is a decision. It is enormously liberating. And so that I think is, is almost the first piece when I'm working with people about, where they feel they are, whether that's stuck because they want to change their role or whether it's stuck because they want to break through to that next level of leadership.

Um, [00:17:00] I helping them that they have some choices is enormously liberating for them. And then the other piece is helping people explore these stories that they have created. You know, we all create the narrative of who we are, how we got here and what that means. And actually helping them explore some of those stories, you know, as I, as I've been unpacking some of mine here, because those are the things that have created the beliefs and assumptions. that potentially keep us stuck. And so it is about how could you reframe that story? You know, you have this assumption, and I just had this conversation with a, with a client the other day, and his boss is saying he has more power and influence within this organization than he realizes. So the, the challenge for, for him and for me working with him is. What would that look like for you? What would that open [00:18:00] up for you? If tomorrow I wave a magic wand and you come and you go, you have that level of power that you say you would like, but you're, we all work in a system. and often we blame the system and absolutely there are things that need to be changed within our systems.

You know, it's not that I think we can magic away. the glass ceiling, for example. but what can we do within that system? What are the things that I have control over? And one of the things I have control over is to start to challenge the assumptions I have, you know, and that can be with some of my clients.

That's sometimes that's an assumption about thinking of another client now, and it's an assumption about, girls like me or from my background, she's an immigrant to Australia, don't, speak up. you know, I have to be more acquiescent. there's an older white man in the chairman or the CEO [00:19:00] position. it's not my place to challenge him, for example. and actually helping her see the value that she could bring and see that actually all of her experience of overcoming adversity, of being an immigrant with English as a second language, with everything she had learned along the way, actually has enabled her to really now embody this greater sense of power and this greater sense of actually I have something to bring and I'm going to bring it. that for me is just hugely rewarding. and that, so there's, the different pieces about people's stories and how they are shaping, how they show up in leadership. And that's what I love working with people on is how can we unpack that, reframe the things so that you position yourself. differently.

Janine: And when, actually I've got two questions. First [00:20:00] question is, now you talked there about exploring the narrative and the liberation that we actually all have once we understand that we have a choice. To stay, to move, to go back. Everything is a choice. And you also talked about being brave, to take that step into the unknown.

And I guess, this is where the two things are connected, right? Because do you see in your work that there is an element of, of fear, around understanding that we have a choice and equally is there a level of fear around being willing to Unpack and reframe your narrative. Like this shift doesn't happen with the flick of a switch, right? So,

and I equally know that every time I've stepped into that space of personal learning, it's, takes a whole lot of bravery because you don't know what's coming up. So

what tips would [00:21:00] you give people about taking, to use your words, taking that step into the unknown. So the first bit of making the choice to go, Oh God, I'm not sure where this is going, but let's get on this rollercoaster. That choice.

Sue: You're right. They're all of these things that connected and it's bloody uncomfortable. And I think that's part of it. We naturally as human beings, we move towards what is comfortable and pleasant, and we move away from what is uncomfortable or difficult. And that includes emotional states. So therefore, Oh, It's challenging, you know, staying with the status quo, staying on that same treadmill is easier, even when we don't like it. Plus, you know, even when we don't like it, it can be easier. And, you know, I've had clients say to me in sessions as well going, oh god this is this is [00:22:00] hard so sometimes after a coaching session, you, you feel really fantastic and empowered.

And other times you can walk away going, you know, like, I feel a bit discombobulated because it's hard. so to your point of, yeah, where do you find that courage and that bravery I often say to people, you have to take what I call a strategic pause. You have to slow down to go faster. We all get stuck in and corporate world is so go, go, go busy, action oriented that we do need to carve out time when we are going to sit with ourselves and reflect on some of these questions. So it's about. reflecting on, you know, I would only say you take a step into the unknown once you've started to reflect on, well, what does success mean for me? you know, is it about salary or the new car or the, this, or [00:23:00] actually, and I think as we get older, we shift on this as well. What does it mean for me in terms of the contribution I want to make? You know, what's my purpose? in the world, in my community, and how can I bring that to what I do in a professional capacity?

It doesn't mean we all throw the towel in and work for a not for profit or volunteer. How can I bring what's really meaningful and purposeful for me, into my professional role so that I feel more fulfilled. Because you know, that's a big part of what I do is I want the people I work with to feel fulfilled in what they do.

I want them to feel authentic that they're bringing all of the different parts of them to what they're doing and that they ultimately feel good about what they're doing. Doesn't mean they feel good all the time, but it means when I take a step back, I can look at Yeah, what I'm doing here is worthwhile and I get a great [00:24:00] sense of achievement from it, which doesn't mean I don't have really tough days where I go, what the hell am I doing here? But it means overall, I can look at that through that lens.

Janine: There's a couple of things in there as well that you talked to there's this being okay to be uncomfortable. I know I see it in a lot of my work where. It's not always as simple as band aiding, fixing, gold starring. and I know you and I have had conversations about this over the years, that sometimes it is hard because you've got to experiment, you've got to get curious, you've got to sit, in that space of really looking, At your business, at your leadership to try and pinpoint what that, that block is.

And I know personally for me, I'm a massive believer in, engaging coaches to help me become more. I know every single time I've hit whatever plateau it's been at a time that if I can [00:25:00] get the help to unlock it, it allows me to move forward. And I, I guess my question for you in terms of the work that you do You know, and you've worked with hundreds of incredible, executives at senior positions in organizations, what do you see the other side of that tension? The other side of taking the step into the unknown, the other side of coming out of coaching sessions, and I love that word, discombobulated, like, what do you see when they are. brave enough to do the work that they need to do to unleash their brilliance.

Sue: what I see?

and what I was saying, you know, is really rewarding for me is that people Showing up with more of their authenticity. They're bringing more of their whole selves to their work. They feel more fulfilled and this actually talks to as well, how I came to write my white paper last year on executive presence because I think it is building all of these [00:26:00] parts of ourselves that help us show up with greater presence. It starts from within, you know, it starts with this piece about who am I, what am I here to do, what are my strengths, how am I going to bring all of these things. And that is when we actually can start to show up and speak with greater conviction in the workplace and as a leader. That's when we start to. unlock some of that vulnerability and actually share more of ourselves so that we can share our vision and bring other people along. You know, sharing our vulnerability allows them to share more of themselves so that we bring out the potential in everyone around us. And then the other elements of the executive presence piece that I work with is this is around the self, but then also how do I balance that with a humility? Which is around my ability to listen and welcome the contributions of [00:27:00] others. To see new perspectives. Because sometimes, for some of my clients, what they're holding onto really tightly is a need to be the person with all the answers. The need to be the expert in the room. And to step into that next level of leadership, they need to let go of some of that. Because you can No, longer be the expert on everything when you're at that more senior level. So you have to really embrace the contributions of other people. So there's, how do you do that? And then the third part is around connections. And I see that on multiple levels. It's the connections to the people around you.

It's connections to your stakeholders. It's building those relationships, but, and it's also connection to purpose and alignment with what the organization is doing. So. Circle back. I feel like I've gone off on a tangent,

just move back a bit in terms of what I see on the other side of that stepping into the unknown and getting uncomfortable is. opening up of new [00:28:00] possibilities and opportunities. Because now we're in a space where we are more comfortable in who we are, or more, more confident about who we are and what we're bringing. But we're also increasing that ability To be vulnerable and to welcome contributions from others. And we're also, you know, this is part of the piece about you've been a technical, particularly if you've been in a field that is more technical analytical, how am I getting out from, you know, behind the PC from deep in the spreadsheets and building the relationships. So that's what I start to see is then, then people, as they step through this, They see more opportunities. They see, start to see more where they can really bring their talents and strengths. And in turn, other people see that in them. And I think that's, there's the two things happen is you start to recognize it in [00:29:00] yourself. And then as you do that, as you speak out with more conviction, as you, challenge other people's thinking as well as challenging your own and be open to being challenged. Other people see a shift and that's where they really then get the opportunity to take on a fabulous new project or step into a new role

step up a level. because now they are seen and perceived differently by other people.

Janine: yes, I could not agree more. I think, the knock on impact then of doing that work is that everybody benefits teams, fellow leaders, peers, family, et cetera. So your point right back at the beginning, if we've got to be brave to take the step into the unknown, almost becomes a non negotiable if we're wanting to.

become our best selves at work to enable others to become their best [00:30:00] selves. what's interesting for me is there's so many, and I'd love your thoughts on this. I hear a lot in my work of almost like an expectation that other people should be creating the opportunities. you've heard my piece about the blame triangle where we're either, you know, blaming something else for our lack of progress, blaming someone else for our lack of progress, or even blaming ourselves for whatever we perceive as our lack of, and I talk a lot about, know, we've got to take ownership in this space, which is exactly what, what you're talking about, this piece around expectation that.

leaders, organizations, governments, et cetera are going to sort it out for us versus the ownership piece. I'm really interested to hear your, your thoughts on that and how that contributes, to the work that you do.

Sue: there are two really interesting parts to that because [00:31:00] absolutely. The system, the organization plays a role. If we all had amazing bosses in organizations that were really invested in bringing out the best in all of their people, we would all be environments where that was welcomed, where it was safe to express yourself more freely, where your differing views and diversity of opinions were embraced. that would be really an ideal world. And that's part of, I feel partly I was drawn to doing the work because I've had too many bad bosses, that would hit you about the head for making a mistake rather than help you learn from it. And what can I do better next time? So there's that piece about how do we as leaders, create the environment where the people that work with us or alongside us can make those contributions. There is also though, there is [00:32:00] also a personal responsibility piece. And, and, you know, I referred back to that earlier, realizing that I had neglected my own personal and professional development for a long while. And I, I see this, I see this in a lot of people, you know, and I think sometimes earlier in our career. There's a more structured way of training and developing people. You know, you go through a graduate program or you go through some kind of professional development and bigger organizations have, well, this is the, you know, this is the track to manager or this is what you need to do. And as we become more senior, all of those things tend to become less structured. It becomes more about building the relationships, the connections, looking for your own opportunities, learning to put yourself in the right conversations, with the right people, in the right rooms. and we need to be cognizant of that. [00:33:00] And we need to, take some responsibility. And I think it's neither wholly one or wholly the other.

I think you could do all of the your personal professional development and some of the external circumstances may still be conspiring against you. And sometimes when I'm working with somebody, it's like, if you really, and it is often trial and error as well. So what can you try? What in this environment with this particular boss or with this team, what can you try? And so there's an element of, okay, I'm going to try this and then we'll debrief. and how did that work And sometimes you need to try something for longer because other people have used to you behaving in one way. So they're not quite ready for you to behave in a different way, but also there can be a point and back to my earlier point about, you know, recognizing a role that I should have left two years earlier. You are not going to be able to deliver your best work in this environment. So perhaps it's time to make the choice to, to look [00:34:00] elsewhere. and you will only really know that if you do the work yourself as well. So there are the two things at play. What is the environment you're operating in? How can we as leaders in any corporate or any organizational environment, provide the most effective environment, you know, the really positive environment where people's contributions are welcomed. And then as individuals, how do I continue to invest in my own professional and personal development?

Because at the end of the day, nobody cares more about it, or it's not as important to anybody else as it is to me. And looking back and saying, yeah, when I was in that stage at like 35 going, Oh, woe is me. Everything's turned to shit in this career. that's when I should have taken some action. it took me a long time. So I recognize that it goes back to the piece about it's hard. Sometimes it's hard to make changes. And then with [00:35:00] hindsight, you can often connect the dots that you couldn't see when you had to first step out and make those changes. So there's, there's an element of both, but I think if we don't take personal responsibility, nobody else is going to do it for us.

They might support us as our boss, but they're not going to do it for us. They can't do.

it for us. Mmm.

Janine: So, Sue, I'm really curious because you've made some tough decisions, brave decisions throughout your career, changing your career along the way. Who is Sue now? Like, what have you learnt about yourself as the CEO and founder of your organization? as the leader that you are in the work that you do, you know, you talk about creating the environment and this personal responsibility piece.

I'm really curious who, who are you now? What have you learned about yourself that's contributing to the work that you do?

Sue: much [00:36:00] gosh. I am much more able to sit in that place of discomfort. That is something I've had to learn over the years. so I now am able to sit with asking some of those difficult questions of myself. And for me that has been cultivated partly through things like mindfulness meditation practices, through yoga, through actually letting myself be in my own company and posing those questions and reflecting on those questions. So I think one of the things I bring now is my ability to be present and to hold the space. for my clients, to support them to work through the difficult stuff. And, on the flip side, you know, there's also always been a part of me that is all about the people side. You know, I [00:37:00] love, I love people.

I love conversations. I love, how do we talk about something that's important? How do we grapple with big questions? when I was younger, I was very focused on the do, do, do, and very focused on the, I have to get to the next level and I have to be seen as such and such. And one of the, again, another practice that really worked for me was, was a gratitude practice and shifting from being entirely in my head and actually cognitively acknowledging that I've had a pretty charmed life and being able to say, yep, there are loads of fabulous things in my life.

Of course I should be grateful. Yeah, that's very easy to say, I'd be very flippant about, and one of the things I had to do was really challenge myself to how do you feel that in your heart and your gut. And again, it goes back to that making time for reflection, making time for reflecting on what's [00:38:00] important to you and saying, yeah, these are the things and then allowing yourself to savor those experiences. those are two of the key elements of this, this love of having these really rich conversations with people and also being able to hold the space and be fully present for them whilst they work through some, tricky or challenging stuff. but also there's still an element of, I would have always called myself an extra, but there's still an element of the. Party girl that loves to be out with lots of friends. I love to host, you know, I love to host dinners or, a party and go dancing and, and have music and life and dancing and all of the interaction with people and the, the fun, that's something as well. I think that I, I always knew how to have fun, but I didn't know how to find fun in my work. And our ability to find fun and playfulness and [00:39:00] joy our everyday lives and bring some of that to work unlocks something in us. And it also makes life so much better.

Janine: Oh, so much deliciousness and all of that. Absolutely love all of that. thank you for sharing your story. I love hearing this disco ball of experience. And, you know, we talk a lot about how everything is connected, how our experience is the very thing that gets us to that point.

Um, and you've added to this, this. This ability or this willingness to be brave enough to start understanding, uh, the choices that you've made along the way and the context and the stories that you might be telling yourself in terms of those stories. and you're really passionate, you know, your work, you mentioned there that you've written this white paper, which is called, Is about all executive presidents.

In fact, before we go, where, where did that come from? Cause it takes a bit of effort and I'm imagining that was a brave piece for you writing the white paper. [00:40:00] what was the reasoning for going, you know what? I've had enough of this. I'm going to write a white paper about it. What, what was that tipping point for you to actually go?

And I call it bum glue where you have to literally think and write and put your opinions out there. Okay. why was that such a driver for you to write that white paper? Why did that matter?

Sue: That mattered because from my own experience and from many of the clients I was working with, I felt that there was this really strong, goes back to what I was saying before, this kind of structured training that we get in the earlier parts of our careers. And particularly, I think it goes for all leaders, but particularly, you know, with my experience in the finance field is this is all about analytical, technical task delivery.

Okay. And you and I know that technical brilliance doesn't make a great leader. You know, it's not enough. It's almost a given that you have to have developed and [00:41:00] demonstrated that along the way, but it's not enough. And this is where I could see that so many people, I knew from my own experience and then working with a lot of finance professionals over the last few years, is that. This is where a shift had to happen they weren't feeling like they had the power and the influence that they wanted, which is really, you know, for me, it's about how do you build your executive presence so that other people perceive you as a leader with presence, with influence, because that will deliver the leadership impact that you want. You know, it's one of those power is a bit of a dirty word. But if you don't have a degree of power, you can't actually create the outcomes that you want as a leader. So this was how can I help people shift from being the person who turns up and does this role to being the leader [00:42:00] who is inspiring others, who's empowering others and is inclusive in bringing all the views. And is really has the confidence of their stakeholders that they can deliver. And I think that's one of the key elements of executive presence. It's inspiring the confidence of other people in you that you can deliver even when times are tough, even when the pressure's on, that you are going to be able to stay cool, calm and collected. have the difficult conversations. Bring the people around you along on that journey. And you might not have all the answers, but you have the resources to figure it out. And the resources might be the contribution of other people. You don't have to do it. I think that's another key part. You don't have to do this on your own. Leadership is a practice. that we need to be working on all the time. It's something that we can be [00:43:00] building and improving upon all the time. And we need to do that in community. We don't need to, that's another piece of advice for my younger self. Don't try and do it all on your own. Ask for help. Ask for support, and that is one of the other things I do is you know, the com creating a community of female finance leaders is around providing that support network.

Because having people around you who can both challenge your thinking, but also support you and be your cheerleaders is invaluable.

Janine: Love all of that. We're all a work in practice and your final point there around. Owning that practice and equally the importance within that of being braver about understanding that personal executive presence. And I'll put the link to your white paper and to how people can get hold of you, in the show notes.

[00:44:00] What a fabulous conversation. So many gems throughout this conversation around, you know, initially sharing your story and this, this piece around being brave to take that step into the unknown and, and to let some go, some things go, which, Is often through that, that piece of working with someone else to help you navigate the complexities around the narrative you've created for yourself or the choices that you've made along the way and taking ownership of that.

So the self work that you talk a lot about and being Uncomfortable in that space. And then what I loved is that flip to, how you then, once you understand yourself, step into that executive presence, how do you, what is the work? What are the tools? How do you step into that piece of with humility?

Comfortableness, ownership, knowing that you are doing the work that you have done for yourself to unlock that opportunity [00:45:00] in others. So it's been a remarkable conversation. thank you.

Thank you so much for your time.

Sue: Thank you, Janine. It's been fabulous to be here.